3.5 - Telekinesis to grapple Ghosts?

malak · Post by **malak** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:19 am

In yesterdays game, I wanted to use the telekinesis spell to grapple a wraith. I had read somewhere that it can be used to that effect... but the DM didn't think so, and I didn't find anything in the rule text that would allow this explicitly.

So - is it possible to use telekinesis to grapple incorporeal creatures? If yes, could you please point me to the text where it's written?

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:23 am

malak · Post by **malak** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:37 am

Damn. I found the source of my mistake, too. It was in an CO thread on the wizards boards here.

CantripN's Guide to Transmutation Spells wrote:Telekinesis (:evillaugh) - You can grapple Ghosts with this, damnit!

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:14 am

ubernoob wrote:
Incorporeal Subtype wrote:Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled.

Note that Skip Williams "interpreted" this to only apply to incorporeal vs. corporeal grapples in his Rules of the Game articles on incorporeal creatures. (Trips are still out, according to him.)

Because an incorporeal creature cannot exert any Strength and its body (such as it is) passes through material objects, an incorporeal creature cannot use bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, sunder, or trip attacks against corporeal creatures or objects. Some of these attack forms are possible against other incorporeal creatures (see Incorporeal Against Incorporeal in Part Four).

Grappling: You can resolve grapple attempts using the rules on pages 155-157 of the Player's Handbook, except that an incorporeal creature uses its Charisma modifier instead of its Strength modifier when it makes a grapple check. Remember that grappling combat begins with an initial grab attempt, not a grapple check. When one incorporeal creature tries to grab another, it makes a melee touch attack and uses its Dexterity modifier for the attack.

So if you believe Skip's interpretation (a big "if"), then it's not a stretch to say that a force effect can grapple an incorporeal creature.

malak · Post by **malak** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:34 pm

Thanks, hogarth!

JigokuBosatsu · Post by **JigokuBosatsu** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:52 pm

Ya know, back when I was doing a bit of ghost hunting, I always wanted to get a bunch of badass brick-breakin' martial artists and take them to a super haunted location. I mean, to see some ripped monk kick a ghost down the stairs? My thimble runneth over.

But, maybe it was ideas like that that got me drummed out of the mainstream paranormal circles, which we all know are very very rational.

Sashi · Post by **Sashi** » Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:39 pm

hogarth wrote:So if you believe Skip's interpretation (a big "if"), then it's not a stretch to say that a force effect can grapple an incorporeal creature.

I find myself (gag) siding with Skip's interpretation. The answer to those kinds of questions is "We wrote the rules assuming everyone was playing Tordek, Jozan, Mialee, and Lidda. So if your character does something weird that TJML doesn't do, you'll have to alter the rules."